To: Whoever runs SitePoint forums...

Artashes · Post #1 (**permalink**) 11-04-2006, 09:37 PM

...you are doing a horrendous job.

I was stunned today when for the second straight time I was proven that at SitePoint $ buys you moderating power. As I am not that familiar with the main forums of the site, Sitepoint's marketplace has definitely left a bad taste in my mouth.

Imagine walking into a car dealership, seeing a $70,000 car, but being thrown out after asking if it comes in blue color...

In a similar case, I was browsing the Established Sites for Sale forum and noticed one of the sites of interest. After asking what I consider a reasonable enough question my posts have been removed on both occasions. A website had about $100/mo revenue, their traffic stats were published with a mistake, but there was a $7,000 BIN on the site.

The funny thing is - I WAS an interested buyer and my questions were critical for me to make a decision. My question contained a clarification on stats and request for a broke down valuation of the site to explain the $7,000 price tag based on site's revenue, traffic, membership, software, etc. Questions that come standard. I guess the buyer didn't like my questions, so he made them disappear. But he is not the only one. I have seen it done many times in SitePoint marketplace section that apparently serves the seller community, or whoever pays them $5 to display an ad. Doesn't matter if important information is missing - buyers don't have the rights, nor they will ever be protected.

Anyway, just wanted to share my experience, which repeated itself about 2 weeks ago with another site for sale. Sellers that don't like questions (or don't know how to answer them) will always use a Report a Post button, knowing there is a sales agent who is going to cater to their needs. I guess they expect you to buy something without proper information. Sorry, not me.

Way to go SitePoint, you just lost a qualified buyer.

Blue · Post #2 (**permalink**) 11-05-2006, 10:37 AM

I've noticed the same thing Art.
I don't consider sitepoint to be a trusted source for any purchases.
As soon as they protect sellers from reasonable enquiries they are tainting the market.

EQWebHost · Post #3 (**permalink**) 11-07-2006, 06:16 PM

Not too many fiendly people there either! I have posted there in the past and was greated with nothing other then hateful remarks. Not the type of place I would frequent!

Artashes · Post #4 (**permalink**) 11-07-2006, 07:10 PM

EQ, I think that the Contest forum is the only outstanding part of SitePoint's marketplace section. You can find some amazingly skilled people there.

Matt Mickiewicz · Post #5 (**permalink**) 11-09-2006, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Sellers that don't like questions (or don't know how to answer them) will always use a Report a Post button, knowing there is a sales agent who is going to cater to their needs"

This is actually incorrect... The reason why sometimes valid comments are deleted is because we allow sellers to moderate their own auctions. The primary goal of this feature was to allow sellers to remove spam, or hateful remarks promptly, without having to wait hours (or even days, if its a weekend) for a moderator to remove it for them.

As you point out though, some sellers are abusing this feature to delete legitimate comments/questions. Obviously, and as you point out, this is not the intended use for the self-moderation feature. I would certainly hope that a potential buyer who does not have his all questions answered would not bid -- that's why we strongly encourage all buyers to conduct proper due diligence & we even provide a help guide to assist *everyone* in asking all the right questions.

Quote:

@Blue: "I don't consider sitepoint to be a trusted source for any purchases."

I don't think any Internet source, whether eBay, Craigslist, or another forum is a 100% safe venue for purchases. It's always up to the buyer to conduct proper due diligence and to take all precautions necessary -- we do our best to educate buyers on how to do that. Ask lots of questions. Speak on the phone. Get a *real* name and address. Use escrow. Sign a contract. Get references and call them up. etc.

@EQWebHost: I'm sorry you had a bad experience in our community. Unfortunately, with 120,000+ members I can't personally ensure that everyone has a positive experience everytime (especially given how easy it is for misunderstandings to occur online).

That being said, if you were personally attacked in the forums, please do report the posts to us and it will be dealt with very promptly. Repeated personal attacks are a legitimate reason to ban people, and we have done it many times in the past.

We'd love to have you back.

Cheers,
Matt Mickiewicz
SitePoint Co-Founder.

Blue · Post #6 (**permalink**) 11-09-2006, 08:02 PM

To be honest Matt, I wasn't aware that this was a self serve system as far as sellers moderating posts goes.
I'm not sure I agree with this system regardless of whether or not the seller is paying a fee as it leads to far too much potential for deception, but your point about "buyer beware" is well taken.

Artashes · Post #7 (**permalink**) 11-09-2006, 08:26 PM

Hello Matt,

Nice of you to join and explain how the marketplace functions from sellers' angle. Just like Michael (Blue) mentioned above, I wasn't aware that this is the format you decided to go with. While I do not agree with it, I guess my option as a qualified buyer is to go on a one-by-one basis: if I don't like seller's behavior toward my (or someone else) questions, then it would raise a flag to ignore the sale. However, this would not protect you if someone else places a BIN without seeing the mistakes I did in a sale, or at least seeing the questions. I think that a certain level of challenge should be present in a marketplace - at least for mods eyes to view. One of the advantages of the community is in itself - someone might ask a question I can overlook by accident, so members protecting each other. At the same time, it would provide a learning environment for users who are new to Internet business - they can learn asking the right questions, detect mistakes faster.

Again, thank you for the insights, I appreciate your effort. However, with the new information learned, I guess I will just avoid the marketplace section for Website and Domain sales altogether after my experience (unfortunately I have to make that decision for myself). However, the contest forums will still work since the product is visual and the only question you as a buyer have to ask yourself is whether you like it or not. The product is out in the open.

Best,

ANMMark · Post #8 (**permalink**) 11-09-2006, 11:04 PM

I should point out that while I'm not as active at SP as I once was (personal choice, etc), I find that it was extremely classy for Matt to come here with a polite explanation, rather than accusations, and a "we're right, you're wrong, and that's it" attitude, like *some* forum staff do.

I have to say that I agree that the self moderation method leaves far too many open doors for sellers to abuse it. I'm sure this was a feature that looked very good on paper though, as many ideas do at first.

Increased exposure to these types of experiences could be extremely damaging and harmful to SP's credibility in the market place, over time. However, with increased abuse of this system, I hope it's something SP will look into, before SP's reputation becomes far too damaged for any change to matter.

Again, kudos to Matt for explaining things in a proper and polite manner. I just wish other community leaders had those type of ethics.

Artashes · Post #9 (**permalink**) 11-10-2006, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ANMMark

Again, kudos to Matt for explaining things in a proper and polite manner. I just wish other community leaders had those type of ethics.

You bet it was a classy move. I wasn't even expecting Matt to look at our humble forum.

Matt Mickiewicz · Post #10 (**permalink**) 11-10-2006, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ANMMark

I have to say that I agree that the self moderation method leaves far too many open doors for sellers to abuse it. I'm sure this was a feature that looked very good on paper though, as many ideas do at first.

Indeed, we will be looking at ways to discourage and minimize the chances of sellers deleting legitimate questions. We're investigating the addition of a stern warning before a post is deleted by the seller, as well as flagging each deleted comment with additional information about who removed it.

That way, if a potential buyer comes into an auction and sees that the seller deleted half a dozen comments, s/he can be extra cautious in asking all the right questions -- or skip the auction altogether.

Artashes · Post #11 (**permalink**) 11-10-2006, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Mickiewicz

We're investigating the addition of a stern warning before a post is deleted by the seller, as well as flagging each deleted comment with additional information about who removed it.

That way, if a potential buyer comes into an auction and sees that the seller deleted half a dozen comments, s/he can be extra cautious in asking all the right questions -- or skip the auction altogether.

Insanely good idea to improve buyer's experience.
Perhaps creating a mediation point would help a lot: Seller removes post, Buyer comes back and decides to contest the removal - a Mod will then see the content of deleted posts and makes a decision whether questions asked by Buyer were appropriate.