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View Poll Results: Is cloud-powered Unlimited Hosting the future of this industry?
Yes, most definitely! 8 25.81%
Possibly, but only if the cloud network is truly capable of handling it. (ie. 500+TB of disk) 11 35.48%
No, unlimited will always be a marketing scam, no matter how advanced the technology becomes. 12 38.71%
Voters: 31. You may not vote on this poll

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  Post #16 (permalink)   05-12-2013, 06:09 PM
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Once again the self-proclaimed experts reveal a sense of non-expertise (to put it politely)

Its amazing how many hosts interpret "unlimited" as "infinite." Their mistake is assuming "unlimited" refers to hardware -- a totally ignorant assumption.

Ignorant because any decent server admin knows that the hosting resources in a shared hosting plan are limited by quotas not hardware. Thus "unlimited" refers to the quota
.

The same faulty logic will claim that there is no such thing as unlimited talk in a cell phone plan because people have to sleep and eat and can't talk sometimes, or there are only 24 hours in a day and there is not such thing as an infinitely long day to do the unlimited talking. Or there is no such thing as unlimited mileage when renting a car since the size of the gas tank is finite.

It is the limit imposed by the provider that is unlimited, not the size of the hardware. It is the mere absence of the artificial quota that makes the hosting resource unlimited.

The real scam is hosts going around with their chests puffed out and claiming host that provide unlimited hosting plans are scammers. They are either liars or ignoramuses -- neither quality qualifies them to manage a server

Last edited by Collabora : 05-12-2013 at 06:32 PM.
 
 


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  Post #17 (permalink)   05-12-2013, 07:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Collabora View Post
The real scam is hosts going around with their chests puffed out and claiming host that provide unlimited hosting plans are scammers. They are either liars or ignoramuses -- neither quality qualifies them to manage a server
That's the real problem here. Most 'professionals' rightfully assume that nearly all 'unlimited' providers are falsely advertising their capabilities, or that these providers are being run by kids.

I personally have been screwed over by a couple of the 'unlimited' hosting providers, including (and most specifically) 1and1, who actually threatened to take me to court if I didn't pay them the remaining account balance on a monthly non-contract plan for which I no longer had access to. They locked me out of the account because I used 5 GB of disk space, and they claimed I was disrupting the normal functionality of their network, which is of course against their terms of use.

They kept charging my credit card each month for a service that they themselves cancelled, and they failed to respond to any of my billing complaints. I was forced to cancel my card. They then threatened to take me to court in addition to sending whatever balance I owed to a collection agency.

I then immediately began to collect as many emails and documents as possible proving my innocence, as well as their abuse and ignorance.
These documents (not all, but some) were then sent to 1and1 after I practically threatened to counter-sue.
In the end, they dropped the case, and everything worked out fine.

The 1and1 debacle was one of the key motivators to start up my own hosting business. I vowed to never operate at the same level of service as 1and1, and to this day, have been able to keep with my promises.

Moral to the story? Although some unlimited providers are absolute nightmares to deal with, others are actually very understanding, and won't attempt to take legal action against you if you use more than 5 GB of disk space.

So, trust me. I understand the hate towards the 'unlimited' term, as I've experienced it first hand.
However, this hate is being used too generally, and shouldn't be instantly applied to every hosting provider out there.
Most? Sure, as the stereotypes regarding the term likely apply to 90% of every unlimited provider out there. However, it's that 10% that we're effectively alienating with this hate. To claim that visible resources will always be better than whatever the so-called unlimited host is providing is a form of biased elitism.
You'd be surprised by what the unlimited host is capable of, especially now that technology is so openly available, and cloud networks are fairly easy to create and maintain. The common misconception that unlimited means infinite is a false claim being spread by other hosting providers and web professionals. Nothing is ever truly infinite, not even space itself. (everything must have an end, and an end does not equal infinity)


(in regards to space, we do not currently know what limitations space itself enforces upon us, if any at all. However, space shouldn't be regarded as being truly infinite, as if space is expanding, as current theories suggest, it implies that space itself is confided in some way or form. Simply put, you cannot expand upon what is already infinite, as expansion beyond infinity is a contradiction of terms)
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  Post #18 (permalink)   05-12-2013, 08:28 PM
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^^^Your post is typical of he anti-unlimited crowd: Ascribing actions by unlimited hosts to unlimited plans when in reality the actions would be no different if said host is a limited host.

Let's see......

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidular View Post
I personally have been screwed over by a couple of the 'unlimited' hosting providers, including (and most specifically) 1and1, who actually threatened to take me to court if I didn't pay them the remaining account balance on a monthly non-contract plan for which I no longer had access to.
What does this have to do with offering unlimited hosting plan? Are you trying to convince the unwary that limited hosts don't have billing issues? If 1and1 limited you disk space quota to 10GB would the billing problem have vanished?


Quote:
They locked me out of the account because I used 5 GB of disk space, and they claimed I was disrupting the normal functionality of their network, which is of course against their terms of use.
I doubt they would have locked you out if you were using 5gb and were not disrupting the network. And they probably would have locked you out if you were using 5gb on a 6gb plan and disrupting the network.

Quote:
They kept charging my credit card each month for a service that they themselves cancelled, and they failed to respond to any of my billing complaints. I was forced to cancel my card. They then threatened to take me to court in addition to sending whatever balance I owed to a collection agency.
Again, what does this have to do with offering unlimited hosting? A hosts billing policy is a completely separate realm than the quota policy

<snipped more horror stories that has nothing to do with unlimited hosting plans>


Quote:
Moral to the story? Although some unlimited providers are absolute nightmares to deal with, others are actually very understanding, and won't attempt to take legal action against you if you use more than 5 GB of disk space.

So, trust me. I understand the hate towards the 'unlimited' term, as I've experienced it first hand.
This is just more hypocrisy that laces your post. Why should your issues be excused if the crimes were perpetrated by a limited host, but if host offers unlimited hosting plan it becomes the crime of the century?



Quote:
Nothing is ever truly infinite, not even space itself. (everything must have an end, and an end does not equal infinity)


(in regards to space, we do not currently know what limitations space itself enforces upon us, if any at all. However, space shouldn't be regarded as being truly infinite, as if space is expanding, as current theories suggest, it implies that space itself is confided in some way or form. Simply put, you cannot expand upon what is already infinite, as expansion beyond infinity is a contradiction of terms)
After this existential nonsense its apparent you did not read my post nor know the different between disk quota and disk size

Last edited by Collabora : 05-12-2013 at 08:30 PM.
 
 


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  Post #19 (permalink)   05-12-2013, 08:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Collabora View Post
^^^Your post is typical of he anti-unlimited crowd: Ascribing actions by unlimited hosts to unlimited plans when in reality the actions would be no different if said host is a limited host.
I was agreeing with you, and am in no way against hosting providers offering unlimited disk space or bandwidth.

The 1and1 reference was simply in regards to how some unlimited providers limit your services if you use too much of their available resources.

They disabled my account because I was using too much of the allowed space provided, and assumed I was engaging in some form of illegal activities that went against their terms of service. This wasn't intended to be a gripe against the unlimited provider, but more of a "I've been there" type of example, yet still support the unlimited platform.
If I recall, 1and1 informed me that I was using 3GB more than most of their unlimited accounts were generally allowed, so the cancellation occurred strictly because of the size of the website, and not due to their official response on the matter.

I'm not sure why you read my earlier response as being negative towards the unlimited host, especially since I myself provide unlimited hosting services with my own hosting platform.
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  Post #20 (permalink)   05-12-2013, 08:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidular View Post
I was agreeing with you, and am in no way against hosting providers offering unlimited disk space or bandwidth.

I'm not sure why you read my earlier response as being negative towards the unlimited host, especially since I myself provide unlimited hosting services with my own hosting platform.
That's what I thought before you posted but then thought I was wrong after reading it.

You lead of with

Quote:
Most 'professionals' rightfully assume that nearly all 'unlimited' providers are falsely advertising their capabilities
And then when describing your problems it was important for you to mention that the host in question was an unlimited host.

So I did find your post typical of anti-unlimited posts -- as it stands. Sorry for the misunderstanding

Last edited by Collabora : 05-12-2013 at 08:53 PM.
 
 


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  Post #21 (permalink)   05-12-2013, 09:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Collabora View Post
and then when describing your problems it was important for you to mention that the host in question was an unlimited host.

So I did find your post typical of anti-unlimited posts
I guess you missed the quotation marks.

Quote:
Most 'professionals' rightfully assume that nearly all 'unlimited' providers are falsely advertising their capabilities, or that these providers are being run by kids.
That specific paragraph was in reference to how 'professionals' (note the quotations) assume how all unlimited providers falsely advertise their true capabilities, or are simply managed by children under the age of 18.

They are right to assume that, as for the most part, a very large group of these providers are run kids or uninformed persons, and most of them do not properly list their actual server specifications or limitations.

Advertising an unlimited hosting plan as providing an 'unlimited' amount of disk space and bandwidth is similar to stating how this plan does not provide any clear limitations, and that you are able to host 10 or more GB's of data on a single hosting plan. (limitations, in this case, relate to the quota given)
That's a fair assumption, and unless stated otherwise, most standard consumers would not know what the true limitations are.

The small group of providers that clearly disclose their actual server specifications, and take the time to properly document what 'unlimited' truly is, are the providers that deserve to receive some form of respect and recognition from the hosting community. However, because of the much larger group of unprofessional and incapable providers, the 'legit' ones (so to speak) are overshadowed, and the blame and hate is generalized and shared upon every provider that offers any kind of unlimited service.
Then, with the hate of the unlimited host, you have the elitism of the limited host. It seems as though the 'limited' host has made it their goal to inform the general public of the limitations and 'lies' that the unlimited provider is spreading. Although I truly admire and respect the fact that these hosts are trying to educate the general public, they're doing so in a biased and often untrue fashion, and they tend to completely leave out the fact that some unlimited providers are capable of delivering the services that they advertise, and that they are not all in the business to scam or deceive individuals.

Collabora, you've taken the time to properly express what your 'unlimited' plan is capable of providing, and you've also stated how, although rare, you may enforce certain limitations if needed.
That kind of disclosure is what I would consider to be a 'legit' operation, one which does not, in any way, deserve the generalized hate from the industry professionals, as quite simply, you do not fit within their views on what an unlimited provider truly is.
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Last edited by Sidular : 05-12-2013 at 09:17 PM.
 
 


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  Post #22 (permalink)   05-12-2013, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by bunnykins View Post
All you can eat is not unlimited though.
Yes it is -- "all-you-can-eat" is an excellent analogy. Using the logic of the anti-unlimited crowd there is no such thing as "all-you-can-eat". You can't stay for all 3 meals for the price of one, you can't take home all the food in kitchen. Thus there is no such thing as "all-you-can-eat."

But that's an ignorant and silly outlook. In the context of a single meal for a single individual, it certainly is "all-you-can-eat" and unlimited. One does not need an infinitely large stomach to make the restaurateur honest.

Similarly, in the context of a personal or small biz website suitable for a shared hosting environment one can remove the artificial quota limit and offer unlimited.

Quote:
If you changed unlimited to unmetered then the comparison works.
If offering unlimited hosting is a scam then offering unmetered hosting is a slimy scam. Unmetered is used by hosts that want the advantages of offering unlimited but without the negative, but false, connotations perpetrated by you and your ilk.


Quote:
To take this comparison one step farther. Most unlimited if not all have another limit an inode limit. .
It doesn't matter. Its the disk space quota that is unlimited, not the inode quota. Even limited hosts have inode and other limits that will prevent the customer from using all of their limited allotment.

More hypocrisy

Last edited by Collabora : 05-12-2013 at 09:22 PM.
 
 


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  Post #23 (permalink)   05-13-2013, 02:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Collabora View Post
It is the limit imposed by the provider that is unlimited, not the size of the hardware. It is the mere absence of the artificial quota that makes the hosting resource unlimited.
So by this logic, if I deploy a server for hosting with only a 20 GB HDD in it, I can sell "unlimited" hosting on it and the customer shouldn't get annoyed when the home partition for all customers fills up?

We find that most hosts offering "unlimited" hosting are either resellers of another company's shared hosting service (and possibly have no idea what hardware/disk space/network resources are actually available) and/or have been told that their service is "unlimited", or the host is attempting to play the numbers game and hoping that they don't gain an "unprofitable" client.

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  Post #24 (permalink)   05-13-2013, 02:05 AM
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So by this logic, if I deploy a server for hosting with only a 20 GB HDD in it, I can sell "unlimited" hosting on it and the customer shouldn't get annoyed when the home partition for all customers fills up?
Can you even buy 20 GB drives anymore?

Anyways, technically, yes. You could sell 'unlimited' hosting on a 20 GB server. The limit isn't with the hardware itself, but rather the quota provided by the plan.

So, although you could technically offer unlimited with just 20 GB, why you would want to is another story entirely.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Posilan View Post
We find that most hosts offering "unlimited" hosting are either resellers of another company's shared hosting service (and possibly have no idea what hardware/disk space/network resources are actually available) and/or have been told that their service is "unlimited", or the host is attempting to play the numbers game and hoping that they don't gain an "unprofitable" client.
That's the common problem with hosts that offer unlimited services, and is one of the things I've mentioned in an earlier post. They simply do not know what they are doing, and are either generally inexperienced or, unfortunately, are kids under the age of 18.

Regarding the 'number game'? The chance of a demanding customer joining an unlimited network is truly quite low, so the numbers game (as you mentioned) would be fairly easy to play. :p
By the time a demanding client does come around, the unlimited host would be able to properly provide for the client by moving his/her website over to a less crowded server, assuming of course the host is making a decent amount of profit on their current clients.
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  Post #25 (permalink)   05-13-2013, 07:30 AM
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The reason I am what you called Anti-unlimited is because of the inode limit which I feel makes it not unlimited. I am not anti all you can eat because it is all I can eat. I pay for that meal and eat until I am full but that is not unlimited. There is a limit. There is a time limit as you already pointed out. However that is not the same as hosts offering unlimited space.

That and I have had a lot of bad experiences with unlimited hosts.
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  Post #26 (permalink)   05-13-2013, 07:38 AM
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well as i stated before you cannot really offer unlimited space as if a server has a 500GB hard drive then the limit is 500GB, you cant offer over this unless you add a further HD, but then all you have done is increased the limit.

Its like having a 1lt carton of milk, then the limit in that carton is 1 ltr
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  Post #27 (permalink)   05-13-2013, 07:38 AM
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So by this logic, if I deploy a server for hosting with only a 20 GB HDD in it, I can sell "unlimited" hosting on it and the customer shouldn't get annoyed when the home partition for all customers fills up?
Absolutely! You understand it completely. Your scenario would be a rare exception because 99.9% of websites (suitable for a shared hosting environment) are under 2gb. Thus, on average, the host could only fit about 10 sites on a server -- or add more drives, or servers. I think that would annoy the host more than the customer!

Last edited by Collabora : 05-13-2013 at 07:52 AM.
 
 


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  Post #28 (permalink)   05-13-2013, 07:49 AM
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Quote:
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So by this logic, if I deploy a server for hosting with only a 20 GB HDD in it, I can sell "unlimited" hosting on it and the customer shouldn't get annoyed when the home partition for all customers fills up?
yes, but you will get some customer complain
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  Post #29 (permalink)   05-13-2013, 08:11 AM
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yes, but you will get some customer complain
See my response above. Why? Customer has no clue how large a drive is by looking at their web site. From the point of view of the customer there is no difference whether that drive is 20GB or 2TB.The only thing that matters here is the quota

---------------------------------------

To summarize the real situation here presented by bunnykins and easyhost These recent posts illustrate a standard argument presented by the anti-unlimited crowd: Impose a server management style on the unlimited host that could fail with the limited host as well as the unlimited host and then blame unlimited hosting for its failure.

Once again, more hypocrisy and contradictions from the anti-unlimited crowd

Last edited by Collabora : 05-13-2013 at 08:25 AM.
 
 


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  Post #30 (permalink)   05-13-2013, 08:28 AM
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Just here to clear up the air, and make sure we're all sticking with facts, rather than repeating myths and misinformation.


easyhostmedia, an unlimited hosting provider does not provide an infinite amount of disk or web space, nor does it offer a truly infinite hosting experience.
Unlimited is a type of hosting account that does not enforce predetermined disk or bandwidth quotas.
You seem to be under the impression that unlimited equals infinite, which it simply does not.

bunnykins, I of all people understand your distrust of the unlimited hosting provider. (read above)
However, a single situation or dispute with a certain company shouldn't be any kind of indication or representation of how other hosting providers manage their services. To assume that every provider that has and ever will offer unlimited hosting services operates in the same exact way as the one you had an issue with is a rather unrealistic generalization, one that simply is not true. (again, refer to my situation above)

Collabora, you seem to be entirely accurate, but may I suggest holding off on the rapid analogies? Rather, explain the unlimited service outright to those that wish to understand, using terminology that is already familiar to us, as fellow hosting professionals within this industry. Comparing it to something that doesn't in any way relate to the internet world or this industry may actually confuse more people than it may help, essentially giving the wrong or incomplete impression.
Also, mind holding back with your anti-unlimited references?
Chances are, the people here are not truly anti-unlimited, they just do not properly understand the services that are being offered.

I'll leave the full explanation to you, Collabora. You seem to know what you're talking about.
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