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  Post #16 (permalink)   05-13-2009, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve-Hostirian View Post
Not the way the world works. Full service to you may mean different things to different clients. Impartial reviews? From who?
Agreed. But the neighbor's kid scenario is more of a reality than most mite think. I also run into people who have done their own sites. Don't get me wrong, some are great, but others look like @#$%^& yet they keep them simply because they're proud of doing it themselves.
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  Post #17 (permalink)   05-13-2009, 12:51 PM
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What looks bad to some may look great to others.
The fact of the matter is that the VAST majority of sites online don't require any special coding or professional design. They are recreational or small business sites that serve a function that is sufficient to the user.

It's absurd to think that there is some deficiency in these sites just because the "code" isn't up to par.
Who cares.

If a company that would actually suffer from a poorly coded site tries to go on the cheap then that is their problem. It will show in the long run.
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  Post #18 (permalink)   05-13-2009, 12:59 PM
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Again, what looks like @#$%^ to you may look fine in their eyes. That's what makes the world go around - variety - contrast. If I see a site I don't like, I just move on.
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  Post #19 (permalink)   05-13-2009, 01:45 PM
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And the vast majority of the time if you don't like the look of the site it has nothing at all to do with the coding.
Aesthetics are far more important in my opinion.
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  Post #20 (permalink)   05-13-2009, 02:00 PM
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If a company that would actually suffer from a poorly coded site tries to go on the cheap then that is their problem. It will show in the long run.
That's what I'm talking about. I'm not suggesting that every site should be a beautiful work of art, only that those who wish to appear professional online and who would actually suffer from a poorly designed/coded site reconsider things a bit.
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  Post #21 (permalink)   05-14-2009, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve-Hostirian View Post
Not the way the world works. Full service to you may mean different things to different clients. Impartial reviews? From who?
Full service as respected HTML/XHTML/CSS... standards, regardless of whether the client is satisfied with the site's exterior or not (while under the hood site is just a generic DW mash of non-sense, just waiting to fall apart when edited).

Impartial review from the W3C markup/css validator. This is an obvious black'n'white answer if you ask me.
 
 
 


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  Post #22 (permalink)   05-14-2009, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Amdinistrator View Post
Full service as respected HTML/XHTML/CSS... standards, regardless of whether the client is satisfied with the site's exterior or not (while under the hood site is just a generic DW mash of non-sense, just waiting to fall apart when edited).

Impartial review from the W3C markup/css validator. This is an obvious black'n'white answer if you ask me.
Sorry - I take very little for granted. Yes, W3C validation would be nice. Here's my take - that's not going to happen anytime soon. For those who know how to design with validation, this simply means continued job security.
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  Post #23 (permalink)   05-14-2009, 03:56 PM
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Websites from a business point of view are often the be all and end all, usually as like any aspect of a business this is your appearance to the world and it is on that respect, to the world due to the global nature of the internet.

As such most companies will employ a designer, coder and or project manager to complete a large corporate website. But smaller companies or individuals will often take it upon themselves to use front page (which I now believe is being merged into visual developer or with the express applications) and or other off the shelve applications.

I have before advised a number of these companies and there are numerous reasons, such as “id like to be able to edit and expand it myself” or “id like to be able to update or learn...” however their big downfall that I’m almost always consulted on is page rank, never W3C as they generally consider that secondary or unimportant when doing the “do it yourself” approach.

However there are ways around it, I myself am a big fan of empowering and teaching those who want to “do it themselves” as this is how and where most if not all of use aquired our core experience. Many CMS’s a favourite being Joomla give the user the power to edit their site almost entirely, and do add the ability to edit the meta details to effect ranking to some degree. Others however are diabolical in all aspects of web design and coding.

A number of companies, large news sites and even hosts in some cases use CMS’s because of this, as hard coding isn’t for everyone, but as far as editors go there are so many alternatives.

I personally use Dreamweaver, and a local server to test everything, keeping code and live view on separate monitors. I could use notepad but it lacks the ease of use and organisation of Dreamweaver that I like but as I said there are a number of programs and scripts that are for everyone as the master collection from adobe is on the steep side. That said codeignitor (online php library and environment) is an example of another
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  Post #24 (permalink)   05-14-2009, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve-Hostirian View Post
For those who know how to design with validation, this simply means continued job security.
What I don't understand is that it's not difficult to validate. Sure, if you buy a template and W3 tells you you've got 200 errors you're pretty much screwed, but W3 tells you what the problem is, and after fixing a few sites with validation issues you're bound to remember what not to do.

One problem could stem from not understanding what doc types accept what. So with that in mind I can understand why some seasoned designers have some trouble with past habits, and n00bs do just fine. But honestly, everyone in IT knows you've got to keep up to date with continued training.
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  Post #25 (permalink)   05-15-2009, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve-Hostirian View Post
Sorry - I take very little for granted. Yes, W3C validation would be nice. Here's my take - that's not going to happen anytime soon. For those who know how to design with validation, this simply means continued job security.
I agree, this is actually very simple. I'm not one of those who say that validation comes before satisfying the client, but I have never encountered a client who requests bad coding Until then, I'm just coding by the rules and we're all happy
 
 
 


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  Post #26 (permalink)   05-15-2009, 05:09 PM
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I agree, this is actually very simple. I'm not one of those who say that validation comes before satisfying the client, but I have never encountered a client who requests bad coding Until then, I'm just coding by the rules and we're all happy
In that case just to spice things up a bit I need you to work on one of my projects. Need a minimum of 100 errors, and it has to look completely different in every browser
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  Post #27 (permalink)   05-18-2009, 05:52 PM
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In that case just to spice things up a bit I need you to work on one of my projects. Need a minimum of 100 errors, and it has to look completely different in every browser
HAHAHA! It sounds like I should be paying you for this job!

But really, wouldn't it be nice to encounter such client, oh boy oh boy
 
 
 


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  Post #28 (permalink)   05-18-2009, 11:38 PM
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HAHAHA! It sounds like I should be paying you for this job!

But really, wouldn't it be nice to encounter such client, oh boy oh boy
Honestly it would be pretty hard IMO to intentionally accomplish.
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  Post #29 (permalink)   05-30-2009, 08:31 AM
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Honestly it would be pretty hard IMO to intentionally accomplish.
I guess it would be pretty hard. So that means that all those neighbor kids doing web sites have a talent for at least something.
 
 
 


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  Post #30 (permalink)   05-30-2009, 05:39 PM
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I guess it would be pretty hard. So that means that all those neighbor kids doing web sites have a talent for at least something.
Not really
It's a matter of habits. It takes time to establish good habits, and it takes even longer to break bad ones.
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